IRS Class Topic

 IRS

Give them a W8-BEN or make your own W8-BEN substitute because the IRS publication says you can, if they don't accept it because they're scared stupid, sign whatever they want, exempt, 'without prejudice, under duress' before your signature.. after you get looted and receive a W2, send in form 4852, W2 substitute, to challenge/rebut their claim of you 'exercising privileges' that would validate taxation, claiming 0 income on form 4852.. to refund what they looted.

01:12 AM

SPO1) you still have money removed from your paycheck if a W-4 is involved

2) signing either form triggers assessment
3) signing exempt can get you a lock-in letter

Demand to be employed as an independent contractor and be issued a 1099 instead of a W-4 or otherwise. The employer then sends a 1099 to the IRS. If the IRS gives you a hard time present your argument to them. Your leverage with the employer is that it will save the employer a good deal of money.

A lock-in letter gets sent to your employer and locks you in to the highest withholding. You can't change it.

Regardless, possibly one of the few ways to get companies to stop illegally requiring you to sign these forms and/or withhold from you, which contains no penalty to NOT do it, is the teach them the law - possibly through court. That's what I want to do. I don't want to be a little good boy and follow daddy's orders.08:25 PM

I see. Well, I WANT to sue employers who require people to fill out a W4/W9 - or don't, but still issue a 1099 - so that they'll hopefully learn that that is not only NOT required by law, but is ONLY meant for the people that it's actually meant for.

Of course I would also attempt to resolve this out of court, prior to suing.

One employer would not have subject matter jurisdiction to accomplish your goal. You'd be better off suing the proper party and that's the IRS in my opinion.

You don't think an employer can be held liable for requiring an employee to sign a form inapplicable to him, under penalty of perjury, as a condition of employment, and then firing him for refusing to sign that form after educating the employer that the law does not require it?

Tell me how that is not wrongful termination in violation of public policy.

It has nothing to do with the IRS. The employer is misinterpreting the law, regardless of how propagandized he has been.

Indeed that is wrong because most employers do not understand what a taxable wage is. It is certainly not your labor. A wage is generally paid to federal and foreign workers. Hold on and I'll cite the IRS code to argue.

I know most of the codes. I'm just not sure how *exactly* to write the complaint in this situation. I've been through Juris but this is, I'm sure, a more complex issue to convince a judge.

And I'd like to somehow write it in a way that I don't use terms like "W-4" or "W-9" if there is a way.

Check out these codes: 26 USC 3603, erroneous payments; Rowan CO v. United States 452 US 247; Chapter 24 (wages) 26 USC 3501(a); Chapter 21; Form 4852 substitute for W2.207:32 PM

I'm not sure how 3501(a) would help, 3603 doesn't exist, Form 4852 has nothing to do with it, and the case law seems irrelevant

Trevor is in the tax law channel and has much more knowledge about the laws, codes and directives.

When I initially commented I thought his problem involved a requirement to sign a W-4. I wasn't aware he had been terminated for not executing one at first.

I haven't been terminated and I understand these cases are difficult for a pro se, ESPECIALLY with respect to taxation, but I'm not sure how else we are going to fix what's broken without trying to hold people accountable.

My advice stemmed from experience having employees vs independent contractors. Independent contractors aren't required to fill out and sign W statements. I used to manage several businesses, and had always paid and hired workers as independent contractors. I hired a new CPA who told me how wonderful it would be tax wise if I signed workers up and withheld. That was a disaster. It ended up costing the company an unnecessary fortune. In many cases 1099 employees are better.

Independent contractors are generally "required" (by most peoples' understanding) to fill out a W-9 (which leads to a 1099). If not, the company still will often send in a 1099, which is no better.

What should be done if actually following the law is not requiring a W4/W9 and also not reporting a 1099.

You could do something like what one of our other members does. Something like:

"We follow tax law as written. We do not have you fill out a W4/W9, nor do we send in 1099's. If you believe you are a taxpayer and owe taxes to the IRS at the end of the year, you should set aside money for that."

She also gives them a copy of a short pamphlet to give them a quick understanding of why those forms don't apply to the average worker and she also offers to pay for a consult with Dave if they would like.